Debate On Tongues

1 The subject on--on this speaking with tongues. It's an issue with the Pentecostal people. And I've had quite a--an affair. I don't--I don't make any issues on the platform, because now I'm--I'm sponsored by different groups. And as a--as a Christian gentleman, I certainly would not want to hurt anybody. I... If they're Christian enough to have me at their place, and their people setting there, I--I want to be brother enough to say nothing about it. See? And I just preach the baptism of the Holy Spirit, and--and then when they... When... Let them do what they wish to over there.

Now, I do believe that Spirit-filled people (See?) sometimes get so filled with the Holy Ghost till they don't have any--any control of their own language. I--I believe that. Sometime another it happens, for it's happened to me, and it's happened to others and... But you see, the thing it is, the Holy Spirit first has to be in there. See what I mean? It has to be in there first. See? It's just like if speaking in tongues is a gift of the Holy Ghost.

2 Now, if I was a--a boy, and I was in a, in my--under the tutorship of my father and mother, and you wanted to adopt me, and I gave you my knife. Now, you've got my gift but not me. See? Now, tongues is a gift of the Holy Ghost. There's no Scripture in the Bible that says it is the Holy Ghost. It's a gift of the Holy Ghost. Now, watch. On Acts 2:38. "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the Name of Jesus Christ for the remission of your sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." 'cause they were marveling, because they heard every man speaking in his own language wherein he was born. See? And He said if you would repent, you would receive that gift of the Holy Ghost.

Now, the gift of William Branham is not William Branham. See? Now, if you'll notice you say, "Well, the gift of God is the Holy Ghost. The Holy Ghost is God." See how you could... Couldn't use it there. Well, to everything that I speak of, it must line with the Scripture. I--I won't receive it. Now, I only receive when He tells me, then He always clears it with the Scripture. If He didn't, I would not believe it, although as much as He's told me along the road, still if He ever told me anything wasn't Scriptural, it would not be right, 'cause the Scripture is absolutely our basis. We cannot base our--our salvation upon sensations, or experiences of others, or on our own experience. It's got to be the Word of God (See?), 'cause that's the--that's the true mark.

3 Now, and when I first begin in this debate that Brother Leo is anxious to get on tape here, I suppose... I see it flickering. I guess he's got it running now. I would not want you, Brother Leo, to use this to hurt or anything, but just... I know you wouldn't.

And I wouldn't say to you, brethren, if a man speaks with tongues, all right; but if he doesn't speak with tongues, that still is no sign he hasn't got it. And if he... I seen people speak with tongues like pouring peas on a dry cowhide, just as hard as they could go, and live with another man's wife. See?

I've seen witches drink blood out of a human skull, and call on the devil, and speak in tongues. I've seen witches and Indian magic-men, when the bull-dance come in, and they would set around this big circle, and they would get out and do all their enchantments, and the devil doctor come in, and they go around and around and do all this jumping up and down, and screaming, and beating on these tom-toms, and--and then the witch doctor would come in and speak in tongues and interpret it to them. See? And I've been in camps of witches where I walked in myself, and it's so... You... It's...

This is not advised for you to go to one, but as a minister, I must know what I am talking about, not taking somebody else's word, because it's... I--I must know it personally myself. See? Because I can't say Brother Jones said this or I read this in a book. I've got to know what I am speaking about, because there's too many people that listen to me, and I certainly don't want to come down on that last day with a bunch of people lost. I must know absolutely before I say anything about it being the truth.

And I think every minister owes that to his congregation of people he preaches to on any subject is to be sure that he knows what he's speaking about before he says anything.

4 And so I've been in camps where the spiritualists, and where there come a piano, weigh a half a ton, lift up off the floor, and guitar lay in the room come through strumming music and everything like that, and a coat hanging on the wall come through and set down in a chair by the side of you, knives and forks coming through, and see them--the wizard lay a--lay a--a piece of paper down, take a pencil, lay on top of it, and see this spirit come and run up a stovepipe and come back down playing "Shave and a Haircut-Two Bits," and write in unknown tongues, and this medium stretch, pull hisself all together like that and interpret these, up and down like that, and tell it, and--and interpret those tongues, and tell what was said. So you can't say that speaking in tongues you got the Holy Ghost. See? 'Cause I--I know better than that.

5 Now, if you'll notice, let's apply it sensibly. See? So that you'll understand, and that's the way I want to do this because I realize I'm talking to intelligent men. So in the Scripture, I Corinthians 12, it said there was--there's nine spiritual gifts. Well then, tongues was one of those gifts in the body of Christ.

Say, let's just show it for an illustration, and make it simple. I know you catch it, but let's be sure that you get it. This--this room is the body of Christ, and by one Spirit we are baptized into this room, and in this room is a gift of a chair to relax. There's a gift of light. There's a gift of heat control. There is a gift of a rocker. There's a gift of a lounge, a gift of a rug. There's a gift of a picture. See what I mean?

6 There's gifts, but how do you get into that body? By one Spirit we are all baptized into one body and then subject to any of these gifts. See? So if speaking in tongues then is an evidence of the Holy Ghost, all these other things has to be evidence of the Holy Ghost too. You have to do all these other things, these others: prophesy, interpret, have wisdom and knowledge. But then Paul goes on to fix that. See? Says, "Do all speak with tongues?" No. "Do all have the gift of interpretation? But God has set in the church severally..." See? He just fixed it up like that.

7 Then at the 12th chapter... Now, if you'll go on over to where I struck my debate to take my... The initial evidence of the Holy Ghost, I took it to be love. And the other men taken it to speak with tongues (See?), to have tongues as the evidence.

Now, Paul said it in I Corinthians 13, the next, he said now, that, "Though I speak with tongues of men and angels (that's both kinds) and have not love, I'm nothing. Though I have wisdom..." Now, he's talking about these gifts up here in the body (See, see?), having gifts without the Giver (See?), Love. See? Though I have wisdom and understand all knowledge of God, all the Scripture, can put them together like any great theologian, and have not love, which is the Holy Spirit, I'm nothing."

Now, we know that the Holy Spirit is God. We have to admit that. See? That's God. Well then, God is love. See? So you can have any of the gifts of God without having God. God is love, and Satan can impersonate any of those gifts. See? See, he can impersonate pretty near anything 'cause he perverts. Sin is righteousness perverted.

8 So in the debate, the gracious brother, he--him being the visitor, I said, "Now, I'm willing to discuss this with you if you'll stay strictly with the Scripture, and don't leave the Scripture." And I said, "Then at the end of the discussion, that you can shake my hand, and we'll still feel brothers to one another. 'Cause if you don't, I wouldn't do it (See?), 'cause..." I said, "Because perhaps when it's over you're going to feel the same way you do, and I will too."

"But being that we got moderators here that's sworn, business men, you know, and so forth that they're just--they're just... They're not interested in either side; they're just taking down what's facts. No matter what their decision is, it just is five or six men just form certain Scripture, way this Scripture's given, who takes it? Who really throwed the light on it; that's the one that tells. You see?

9 So he started off as usual, Acts 2 and 4, you know, that they were all filled with the Holy Ghost and begin to speak with tongues as the Spirit gave them utterance. Well, I... And then he went from there to--to--to Acts 10:49, where while Peter yet spake these words the Holy Ghost fell on them that heard the Word. Well, then... And then he went over to Acts 19:5, and Paul laid his hand on them, and the Holy Ghost come on them; they spoke in tongues.

So that taken up most of his time and then it was my time. We was from about 7:00 till about 2:00 in the morning. See? So it was lengthy. So then when he come back, he had about thirty or thirty-five minutes on that. Then they rested the people; then let me speak again, let me speak. So I never left his Scriptures, I stayed right with his Scripture. That's the only way you can correctly, sensibly... I'm just as open to know what's truth as anybody else.

10 I certainly don't want to be wrong, and I'd better be right here, 'cause it's too late when I get there. You see? You want to... As the old colored brother says, "I don't want no trouble at the river." So that's right. I--I want... It's going to be a foggy morning and then a awful time, and I sure want my ticket in my hand, it correctly signed, 'cause I--I don't want... It's too late then. You see?

So, and I... In discussing anything I go at it to learn something. I want to know, and if I'm wrong I certainly want to know that I'm wrong (See?), so I can be right. I wish I could agree upon those things, and make it a universal feeling, but I--I--I'm just... If it's wrong, it's just wrong. You... There's no black white bird nor drunk sober man. See? It's either right, or it's wrong. It--it--it... You can't have error and truth together. It's either truth or it's error. See? You believe that, don't you, brethren? And certainly, if--if--if the Scripture is right, then let's stay with the Scripture. And if the church is right, then... That's what I said to them priests. I said, "If the church is right, stay with the church."

He said, "Well, the church is right."

I said, "Then, you said that the church... that the--that the Bible here is the history of the first church. Well, if it is then it's the infallible church, why have you changed so much. You see...?..."

11 Then that throwed his argument out there. You see? I said, "You said Christ organized the Catholic church." See? "If He organized the Catholic church, and if apostle Peter and all of them was the first Catholics, well, then I'm Catholic too then. I say exactly what they said. Well, you're so far off out here, see?" I said, "you don't have anything they said." See? "Why, Peter said, the first pope, said there's no mediator between God and man but Christ Jesus, the only Mediator, and now you've got tens of thousands of them." I said, "Now, which... Is the first pope right, or this pope? Which one's right?" See?

He said, "Well, you see, the Catholic church has power."

I said, "Then when did the first Catholic say, in--in writing it, said if an Angel from heaven come preaches any other Gospel, let him be accursed, whether he be a pope, or a priest, or whatever he may be, and whosoever taketh away or adds to this book, the same will be taken..." I said, "You're all mixed up somewhere, sir. Either your first church is right, or this one's right. And if your first one was right, this one's wrong." See? And I said, "I'll stay with the first Catholics. See? That way they were Catholics." So you see, you got to be right.

12 We only... To hold a--a--a discussion you have to come back to something basically you can lay your hands on, because you have just as much right to your beliefs, as you believe, and everybody else. But we got to come back. There's got to be somewhere to start from, somewhere to say, "This is it," 'cause you can't debate, other words. See? If we both... I said, "Well, the Branham Tabernacle is right." And you say... he says the--the--the--the... You say, "The Anglican Church is right in England and--and..."

What say? [Brother in audience speaks to Brother Branham --Ed.] Yeah, let him be Arminian, so forth, you know, and you take the Dutch Reform. Well now, where we going to? Now, there's got to be some place. Well, you can go back and quote your catechisms and all others and so forth. We only go back to the church, to our--our found--founders, where we're founded at, but where we basing this at. See, there's got to be somewhere that's right?

Just like a principle that you're speaking on in--in Parliament. You've got to have something that's right. You got--you got to lay it out there and show the people. You got to have some place to start from. Well, that's the way we have to do the Bible.

13 So I come back to the--the question of Acts 2 with him. I said, "Now, you--you say that--that Acts 2 is where you're going to--to base it upon." So I had to give him something to run him off the--run him off the--the line so that he could be--that he could--I could speak to him, you know, get throwed off.

I said, "Now, we'll--we'll basic... if you will." Thank you, brother. "If you will just--will stay with the Scripture..." I said, "Now, brother, I--I admire your stand." See? And I said, "You're... You said here that they were all filled with the Holy Ghost and begin to speak with other tongues as the Spirit gave them utterance. There were dwelling in Jerusalem, Jews, devout men out of every nation under heaven; this was all noised abroad. They come together and were confounded because they heard every man speaking in his own language wherein they were born."

I had to lead him off here a little. I said, "Now, brother, I'd like to ask you this. Now, remember, the Bible says that these unbelievers... It didn't say now that these people (See?), up here that come down from the tower from up in this upper room in the building; It said they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and these out here, they were hearing them in their own tongue wherein they were born. See? They heard them, each man. See? The sinners was hearing them in their own tongue wherein they were born, the unbelievers." And I said, "Then if your Pentecostal interpretation is right (See?), way you got..." Now, I said, "Then there's something either wrong with Acts 2 or wrong with your interpretation."

14 I said, "Now, I want to ask you, brother, where did you receive the Holy Ghost at?" He told me the minute, hour, and time, good man. And he little arrogant, you know, kinda little worked up because under a sweat. There's no reason for that. See?

If I got a rabbit penned up in a field and not a way in the world for him to get out, I'll stand at the gate; he's got to come back, 'cause he ain't getting out. So you don't have to sweat it. See? You know exactly... You know there's not a hole nowhere for him to get out at. So you stay right in any Scripture you want to. He's got to come back to it. So he--he ain't going nowhere. You don't have to chase him all around over the field. Just stand there and let him come back to you.

15 So then I said, "Sir," I said, "Now, how did you act when you received the Holy Ghost?"

"Praise God, I spoke in other tongues as the Spirit give them utterance."

I said, "All right, who all was there?"

Said, "About a hundred and fifty people."

"You were in a church?"

"Yes, sir."

"And were they all English speaking people?"

"Yes."

I said, "Then how did you speak?"

And he said, "I spoke in tongues."

I said, "In your speaking, you gave testimony of the Holy Ghost."

"Yes, yes."

"That you'd received the Holy Ghost?"

"Yes."

"Did the congregation understand you?"

He said, "Why, no."

I said, "Then it wasn't according to Acts 2:4, then (You see?)," I said, "because every man heard in his own language wherein he was born. There was no words minced at all. Every man heard in his own language wherein he was born." I said, "Then you surely never got it according to Acts 2:4." That knocked that Scripture right there from him, the moderator give to me (See?), right there.

16 I said, "Now, on the day of Pentecost they everyone heard in his own language. There wasn't no mincing at all."

He said, "Oh, I see where you're mixed up, Brother Branham." He said, "You see, there, the Holy Ghost, when It first come," he said, "there is... We speak in the tongue of Angels. You see?" He said, "There's--there's no interpretation to that. But then when you get the interpretation," he said, "then there's a tongue that can be interpreted in some of them, as Paul said."

I said, "Yes, sir, I understand that." I said, "Then you mean to tell me then, sir, that--that when we receive the Holy Ghost, that's the tongue that no man understands (See?), when we speak in tongues, on the receiving the Holy Ghost?"

He said, "That's it."

"And then after we get baptized and into the Body, then we receive a tongue that--that they can be interpreted. See? Is that it?"

"Yeah."

I said, "Then you got the cart before the horse." See? I said, "Then you've got to here..." See? I said, "Then on the day of Pentecost, when they received the Holy Ghost, they received it different from you all." I said, "You all receive it, and nobody understands it. When they received it, everybody understood it." I said, "Either these guys had the gift out there to interpret..." See?

17 And I said, "Then if you give them the gift of interpretation, then they had the Holy Ghost too, 'cause they had interpretation, same as you got the gift of speaking, and they were mocking and making fun of them." See? See, there's no grounds for it. And so I said, "What if I told you that God did something to these men that they... these... everyone now heard them in their own tongue?"

He said, "But they were speaking in tongues."

I said, "Just a minute, brother. The unbeliever out there said, 'Behold, are not all these Galileans which are speaking, and how do we hear them every man in our own tongue wherein we were born? These that are speaking are Galileans, speaking Galilean, but we're hearing them in our own language, wherein we were born.'" See? He couldn't stand nowhere then. You see? See? I said, "Now..." He said... Now, I said, "I'm... That could've been that way." I said, "I've seen that happen."

18 A little Spanish girl one time, I was telling you about it. I guess they heard it on a tape in there. And so I said, "Now, we... I was speaking just like I am now, and she was hearing me, and just then... And she said to the interpreter, 'I thought he couldn't speak Spanish.' Well, we played the tape back and it was English, but when the inspiration was on, she heard it in Spanish, and then she couldn't hear one, or didn't understand one word in English. See?"

So it was for her, told her all about what she had, an epilepsy. And she sitting by a fireplace, and eating yellow corn, eat too much and got violently sick, and went to bed, and it throwed her into an epileptic fit. She'd had them ever since. See? Till then, she was healed.

So he said, "Well, now just a minute." He said, "They were... I see where you..."

19 And I said, "I just wonder, brother, why that when you was given this question..." I said, "You were speaking of Acts 2 and 4, and then you went to Acts 10:49..." I said, "How did you leave out Acts 8, when the Samaritans received the Holy Ghost? There's not a Scripture saying that they spoke in tongues." See? Well, I said--I said, "If you notice at Jerusalem, there were gathered... I'm taking your side of it now. See?" And I said, "There were gathered men from all nations. Goes ahead and tell, Medes and Persians, and--and proselytes, and strangers, and Macedonians. Oh, you know, and all like that where they were." I said, "Now, they were all... They were all there, and they heard them, every man in his own language.

And I said, "Now, and at the house of Cornelius..." Now, I said, "When they spoke in tongues there, they heard in their own language the same thing they did back here," I said, "because that Peter said, 'Can we refuse water, seeing these receive the Holy Ghost like we did at the beginning.'" I said, "God will never change His program. If--if you'll stand right here on Acts 2, right here where the Holy Ghost first fell, it'll--it'll cooperate with the rest of it."

20 I said, "Now, if it's so essential, why didn't the Samaritans speak with tongues when they received the Holy Ghost?" I said, "Because they all spoke Jewish. See? See, they all spoke Jewish. There's no need for them to have another tongue, because they're just testifying the Holy Ghost had come. They was all speaking in their language and--and everyone..." And--and I said, "And there was no reason for it." I said, "There is the three tribes (See?), the Jews, Samaritans, and Gentiles." And I said, "Now, the Gentiles, if you remember, Cornelius was a Centurion over a hundred men, a band of Italian. And there was the circumcision and Romans and Italians and--and all--all together there, and however it was, he was speaking, because just like it did at the beginning, now... 'Can we forbid water seeing these has received the Holy Ghost like we did at the beginning?' So you see, it had to be the same way it was at the beginning, and every man had to hear in his own tongue."

21 I said, "I'll admit that there was one time that in the Bible, that everyone spoke in tongues." But he was very upset, you know. And he said, "Hallelujah. Now, you're on the road." I said, "Yes, sir, that was at Babel. No one understood what the other one said." I said--I said--I said, "On Pentecost they all understood what every man said." I said, "It was the outpouring of the Holy Spirit. You see?" I said, "At Babel, they all spoke in unknown tongues like Pentecost does now. No one know what the other one's saying, one jabbering this, one jabbering that, and didn't know nothing, but that was Babel." See? But I said, "At Pentecost every man heard in his own language, wherein he was born."

And he said, "Well, I--I... You're... I still believe." Said, "Glory to God, I received it. Hallelujah. It makes the Church stronger." And I said, "Now, wait, we're not talking about that. We're talking about Bible doctrine. See? We stay with the Scripture here. See?"

22 And--and so then as we went on, he said, "Well," he said, "Oh, I believe they all was under inspiration, speaking in tongues." He said, "I don't believe they heard them from interpretation. I believe they were inspired, speaking in tongues."

I said, "I'll agree with you, and we'll finish our debate upon that (See?), that they were all inspired, speaking in tongues." And I said, "Now, see, it's just like," I said, "we're all gathered here in Jeffersonville." We're all gathered here in Yakima. "The feast of Pentecost is on." And I said, "Now, we're going to say that you're Swiss, you're German, and you're French. See? And we're all in here, and each one of you is a group of people."

23 Now, say it is myself, and Brother Borders, and Brother Gene setting here, and we're all Americans. See? And you got a group, and you got a group, and you got a group, 'cause that's the way they was. They were Medes, and Persians, and whatmore gathered there.

And I said, "Now, we are--we're all here, and all of a sudden there comes a sound from heaven like a rushing mighty wind. It fills the house in here, not out there with you all. And out here, we were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and we come outside, and first thing you know here, I--I'm English, and I go to speaking in English, way I had it first (See?), and you understand it in Swiss."

"Oh, no. No, no." He said, "No, you were speaking in--in--in, pardon me, in Europe."

I said, "Then if it was, then what am I telling him of the resurrection of Jesus Christ, of the coming of the Holy Ghost." See? I said, "I--I'm speaking to you Swiss, while Gene is speaking to you in German, and Roy is speaking to you in French." See? And he said... I said, "Then a..."

He said, "Now--now, you're--you're pretty close to it."

I said, "Pretty close to it?" I said, "That's what the Scripture said. We're hearing every man in our own language wherein we were born." See?

He said, "Oh." And the moderators... I'd done seen it. I done chalked up on the board every one so far, you know. So I said, "We'll finish up this." And he--he said... And--and I said, "Then they were--were all speaking, understanding one another. Which I done had that captured at first place. They had to understand their language. See? Babel was the only time they didn't understand. Pentecost, they understood every man."

24 It... The Gospel must go to all the world, beginning at Jerusalem, and it struck the whole world at that time, the known world right there. See? It had to come like that, 'cause (See?), all the nations under heaven was gathered there, the religious nations; it was Pentecost. See? And he struck the whole world. But go into all the world, beginning at Jerusalem. See? So it had to be testified in language of the resurrection of Christ. So it would go to all the world right there. See? And these carriers here, these people in here, worshippers, would go back in their country.

Like a few days after that the Ethiopian going down, you know, and Philip was down to Samaria, and--and the Ethiopian was on his road back to Africa, the eunuch. And the Holy Spirit called Philip from that big meeting, made him stand in the desert. He was reading Isaiah. He said, "What readest thou?"

He said, "How can I know unless some man teach me?" He was reading said, "Who is it? Who was the prophet speaking of? Himself or..." He'd been up there to Pentecost to worship. See? So he baptized him right there, in the Name of Jesus, and he went on to Ethiopia rejoicing, taking the message to Ethiopia. That's where it was supposed to be--go at. Now, here comes the... Here--here it was. See?

25 I said, "Now..." So I said, "You see, sir, that even the moderators has already chalked up there that they--they spoke in languages that everyone understood. There was not one word minced. See? So your version of Pentecost has already been condemned (See?), because you'll have to put your version of Pentecost in Babel, 'cause you can't put it in Acts 2 and 4. See? Because they heard every man in his own language wherein he was born, and at Babel no one understood nothing. So you see, your Pentecostal version is already back in Genesis again in Babel. See? So you are not up here in Pentecost any more." And I said, "But let's just carry it through a little farther. See? 'Cause it already give to us (You see?), there. So everywhere you go in the Bible, it's got to come back like it is in the beginning. God is infinite and cannot change."

26 He said, "Well, they..." Then he started on with the rest of it. He said, "Now, you will admit, though, Brother Branham, that these men coming out of here just wasn't like Methodists or Baptists." See, that... Throwing it off to my Baptists. See? Said, "They'd not... They had received and was speaking under inspiration."

I said, "Yes, sir. I'll agree with that." So they marked that one. "I'll agree that they--they were speaking under inspiration, what they were saying." I said, "Every time I preach, I preach the same way, don't you? Under English, you know, with inspiration." That settles that...?... That put me in the... I said, "Every time I preach or prophesy, it's not in unknown tongues. Paul said if it didn't have a interpreter that it was nothing, like a barbarian. It's got to be for edification and so forth. See?" So that knocked that out for him. See?

27 I said... Well, he said... And I said, "Well, I'm agreeing that it was all under inspiration." I said, "Now--now, like this," I said, "some of them now," I said, "like we were..." I said, "Those then who were speaking in Galilee to the Galilean, they were under inspiration, wasn't they? See? Like if we're all English..."

He said, "There's none of them Gali..."

I said, "It was in Galilee, and they were all Galileans that was speaking. There were Galileans there hearing them, because they were in Galilee. That was the--the national language." I said, "Then this man come out, and he spoke to the Galileans in their native tongue, and he was Galilean, just like I am English, speaking to the Englishman, in English. See? And he didn't have it." See?

Well, he said, "It might've fell on one and then the other. They just divided it up. Maybe this one here would come speak to them awhile."

I said, "Then after the poor Galileans, then didn't hear nothing." I said, "He wasn't inspired then when he was speaking to them of the resurrection. Same thing." See, it's just no place to stand then, you know.

And we just went on like that till we just combed the Scriptures down right close, right on down like that. See? It'll have to come back to that original, the first. See?

So you see, it... There... It--it--it isn't speaking in an unknown tongue; it's speaking under inspiration. See? And like if I receive the Holy Ghost here this morning in amidst you all, I would be under inspiration, telling you of the resurrection of the Holy Ghost is come to me, under inspiration.

28 Now, see, tongues is not the Holy Ghost. See? Then he said, "Then you don't believe in speaking in tongues?"

I said, "Definitely, I do. I believe in speaking in tongues." And I said, "It's the least among the gifts--gifts according to the way it's recorded in the Bible, 'cause it's the last gift." See? I said, "And a fellow would speak with tongues, but first he's got to have the Holy Ghost before he--he speaks with tongues. If he isn't, he's an impersonator." I said, "Then he could speak with--with tongues, as you said, both of men and of Angels, and still not have the Holy Ghost." I said, "'Cause Paul says, 'Though I speak (though I can speak) with tongues of man and of angels and have not charity, I'm nothing. Though I can understand all knowledge and can interpret the Scriptures exactly right, without this baptism, I'm noth--nothing. And I give my goods to feed the poor and my body to be burned as a sacrifice, and faith to move mountains, and I am nothing.' I ain't even started yet. See? Now, I have all this faith."

I said, "Now, that answers like Dr. Hegre up there that time, you know, that Lutheran dean, you know. And I told him..." You remember the debate that we had, you know, there on the--on... about the... He was telling me about that witch woman, you know, that prayed for the sick, and they got healed, and said God couldn't heal. You've heard the story. See? You mean that... See? I said, "Sure."

29 We have lot of these man come up and say, "Brother, I got healing in my hand. Whew. Feel it? They don't, but the people get healed just the same, 'cause it's on the basis of faith, and the fellow thinks he's approaching God that way. And I believe many of these people get the Holy Ghost (See?), when they come right out of there speaking with tongues. See? I believe it's the Holy Ghost. But that's no evidence they got it. Their life will have prove it."

Some of them come out of there and--and... You heard my vision. I guess you've heard on my tapes about how that when I went to Mishawaka that time, and those people, coming out there, you know, and the colored boy said, "Here he is. Here he is," you know. Well, you remember, they had one man there speaking in tongues and the other interpreting. I never heard it before in my life. See? And now, if I told you, you stop me. See?

30 So then... But this fellow lost the debate, you know. 'Course there's a lot more, but you see what I'm talking about there. See? Come right back to the beginning (See?), right back to the beginning.

[Brother in congregation says, "There's many of these people who are speaking in tongues and feel that they have the baptism, but they--they really haven't"--Ed.]

Haven't got it. ["They've made a confession..."--Ed.] Yeah. [of the..."--Ed.] They haven't got it. See? When the true Holy Spirit comes in, it's the Life of Christ (See?), that lives in the mortal, the human being. See? And they never said a word about Jesus speaking with tongues when He received the Holy Ghost.

Now, how about John the Baptist? He received the Holy Ghost six months 'fore he was born in his mother's womb. How did he speak with tongues?

["What about the deaf and the dumb?"]

Yeah. How could they speak with tongues if they couldn't even speak or hear? How about Elisabeth and Mary when they... Elisabeth, the mother of John, was filled with the Holy Ghost and prophesied, saying, not speaking in tongues. See?

31 So they--they haven't got legs... I talked to some of their main leaders though, and the main board in--in--intelligent people will--will admit that (You see?), but they... But what'd they say it's all... Now, that's a doctrine of the Church. You see? That's what... What are you going to do about it? Well, there you are. See? Now, what... If they tried to change that now, they'd oust them from the organization. See? Well, that's exactly...

I can stay free. I don't have to have to have no organization. See? I'm a free born citizen, and got a right to speech, and--and whatever I wish to say, freedom of speech. And I'm a ordained minister, and so they can't keep me from marrying, burying, or baptizing, or preaching the Gospel. You see? As long as we're democracy, don't have to belong to any organization. See? And--and so now we--we--we say this as a... in that--in that... You understand now? You thoroughly are convinced? [Brother says, "Oh, we were convinced a long time ago"--Ed.] Yes, that it's a... I...?... think there's some things that might--might look very, very good, but that's just...?... altogether...